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It is known that non-deliberate processes do not produce many forms that deliberate processes produce when it comes to granite ... That's why ID can be so easily hypothesized to the near certain exclusion of non-deliberate processes in certain cases while the opposite is not true.[Sean Pitman]

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The ID hypothesis is the notion that ONLY ID could create a given phenomenon. While the first ID hypothesis cannot be falsified as is therefore not science, the second (and real) ID hypothesis can be falsified and therefore is a valid scientific hypothesis. All you have to do to falsify the ONLY ID hypothesis is to show some non-deliberate doing what is supposed to be limited to ID ONLY sources. Again, the ID ONLY hypothesis is indeed testable. One need not demonstrate the identity or mechanism or motive of the creator of a given phenomenon in order to clearly support the ID ONLY hypothesis when it comes to explaining that phenomenon.[Sean Pitman]

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There is simply no need to know *how* a polished granite cube was actually formed, or even by whom it was formed, to know with a very high predictive value, that it was in fact deliberately designed - simply by knowing the common pattern of non-deliberate processes when it comes to their action on granite.[Sean Pitman]

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What is the "common pattern" of "deliberate processes"? [Richard Forrest]

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There is no common pattern for a deliberate process. That is why knowledge about the mechanism, motive, and identity of the deliberate designer is not needed - because it just isn't very helpful for predicting the future of such activities specifically. It has no consistent pattern that always works. However, non-deliberate processes do have a very consistent pattern. That's why we can use this pattern to rule out non-deliberate causes in certain cases and therefore predict, very accurately, that at least one intelligent deliberate designer, mechanism, and motive, among many many possibilities, was in fact responsible for this or that particular observation. [Sean Pitman]

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We have had other posters on this forum insisting that pyrite crystals must be "designed" because of the geometrically regular form and shinny surface. They were misled into this belief through an ignorance of the processes of crystal formation. [Richard Forrest]

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As I've pointed out to you before, why do you think I chose granite for my illustration? You have to investigate the material that has a particular structure in some detail before you are able to tell that it goes significantly beyond the capabilities of non-deliberate processes.[Sean Pitman]

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So how do you know what a process can or can't do unless you know what that process is? [Richard Forrest]

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I really don't think anyone would have much difficulty knowing that wind, rain, tornados, volcanoes, etc. are in fact non-deliberate processes after just a bit of investigation. I therefore do know that these processes are "non-deliberate" - or at least I can't tell any different since they at least have the appearance of random non-directed action. I also don't think there is a real argument against the notion that humans are capable of "deliberate" action. [Sean Pitman]

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What are the characteristics of all deliberate processes, and how are they quantitavely different from non-deliberate processes? [Richard Forrest]

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Again, there is no predictable characteristic of all deliberate processes except in range. Deliberate processes are predictably capable of going far beyond the predictable limits of all mindless processes - to a very high degree of predictive value. [Sean Pitman]

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Pyrite crystals are also very regular. If we didn't know about the processes by which such crystals are formed, your filter would designate them as made by "deliberate" processes. [Richard Forrest]

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Exactly. I never said that knowledge about non-deliberate processes and how they act on the object in question isn't needed. Clearly, such knowledge is needed. What I said was that knowledge about deliberate intelligent processes, mechanisms, and personal identity, is not needed. Such knowledge is not needed to detect deliberate design. [Sean Pitman]

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To assert that if evolutionary theory were falsified, the only other possible alternative is the intervention of the supernatural (and please don't pretend that ID is anything else). [Richard Forrest]

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ID Theory isn't about trying to argue for the identity of the deliberate agent. [Sean Pitman]

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It's very studiously evading the isse of the identity of the deliberate agent. [Richard Forrest]

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That's right. ID Theory is based on the notion of the ID ONLY hypothesis. It isn't based at all upon anything that any potential designer might do in any particular and for any reason. ID Theory says nothing at all about those things. It only says that non-deliberate processes did not do something and therefore something deliberate was indeed responsible. That's it. [Sean Pitman]

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But that rather undermines its claim that it is science. [Richard Forrest]

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Not true. Where does the scientific method require that a hypothesis identify the designer, motive, and method before design can be detected? All ID Theory says is that whoever it is, it was intelligent and it acted deliberately in the creation of certain systems within all living things. I'm sorry that you just don't see the value of such a theory, but that is all that ID is. And, it does indeed carry with it a very high degree of predictive value. When it comes to granite rocks, I've already given you this. Non-deliberate processes always act to produce a random fractal-type pattern on granite rocks - to a very high degree of predictive value.[Sean Pitman]

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So please give me a list of the characteristics of "non-deliberate" processes. [Richard Forrest]

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When it comes to granite rocks, I've already given you this. Non-deliberate processes always act to produce a random fractal-type pattern on granite rocks - to a very high degree of predictive value. When it comes to granite rocks, I've already given you this. Non-deliberate processes always act to produce a random fractal-type pattern on granite rocks - to a very high degree of predictive value.[Sean Pitman]

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So please give me a prediction of ID which will allow ID to be falsified. [Richard Forrest]

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Again, the ID hypothesis cannot be falsified. However, ID Theory is not based on the ID hypothesis. ID Theory is based on the ID ONLY hypothesis.[Sean Pitman]