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Diversity and the Teaching of

Evolution in SDA Schools

by Nic Samojluk


 

The teaching of evolution in Seventh-day Adventist schools has created a lot of discussion among SDA's, both publicly and in private settings. I have included here some of the articles published in SDA publications and the highly charged exchange of ideas concerning what to do with teachers who present the theory of evolution, not as an erroneous explanation of origins, but rather as scientific fact. Read the opinions of leading members of the SDA community:

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Recently the Pacific Union Recorder published a couple or articles advocating the acceptance of diversity of opinions regarding the interpretation of the story of creation as recorded in Genesis. Do you agree with the position advocated by Mark Carr, the author of those articles? If you would like to read Carr's defense of diversity within the SDA denomination, please click on the following Internet links listed below:

Unity and Tolerance in the Church
http://www.pacificunionrecorder.com/106/12/30463.html

Unity and Tolerance in the Church, Part Two
http://www.pacificunionrecorder.com/107/2/30904.html

The above listed Internet links were submitted by Dr. Sean Pitman.


 

Unity & Tolerance in the Church

by Mark F. Carr, Ph.D.

 

 

I know Seventh-day Adventists who believe that God created this world over a period of millions and millions of years. Generally, they sit in church right next to other Seventh-day Adventists who believe God created this world over a period of six literal days about 6,000 years ago. Let this be the first snapshot of unity and tolerance in our Church. And please, do not forget that the point of all this is to help us live together in peace. This is the push of Christian ethics.

How should we deal with this very important matter of belief in God as Creator? Is there room in our Church for those who believe the earth is hundreds of millions of years old? Are these Adventists believers in evolution? And if so, does that make them enemies of God and those of us who believe in creation? On this issue, one Church leader wrote: "For those among us who have already decided—despite the Bible and Ellen White—on evolution, there are plenty of other Churches for you. Ours isn't one." Perhaps, as this person suggests, we should just show them the door and ask them to leave. We would be better off without them. Or so the thinking goes.

Throughout the next few months I want to take a look at a couple of other snapshots of unity and tolerance in the Church. I'll clue you into my bias right now. I believe that Seventh-day Adventists as Protestants have always been and should always remain tolerant of a wide range of beliefs, particularly as it relates to our ability to worship together in Christ.
I believe this for what I take to be three good reasons. First, Jesus encourages tolerance toward those of us who believe differently (Matthew 13:30). Second, Ellen G. White discourages us from thinking that unity will come from an overwhelming assertion of what we do believe. And finally, our current General Conference President, Jan Paulsen, in his role as leader in our Church, wants us to uphold unity and tolerance even in the face of our very real diversity around the world.

There have always been struggles to maintain unity and tolerance in our Seventh-day Adventist history: the Sabbath conferences in our early days, the Trinitarian conflict, the 1888 message, the health message, the inspiration of Ellen White, the 1919 Bible conference debates, the Ford controversy and sanctuary doctrine, and the structural debates that have plagued the General Conference throughout our history. In each and every case, strong-willed positions have been taken on both sides of these issues. While it is true that in some cases lines have been drawn and people have been disfellowshiped, for the most part, I see a tolerant Church that has some sense of unity even in the wide range of beliefs we find among us.
In future installments, I'll come back to the question of God as Creator. I'll also try to shine a light on the following two snapshots: the conflict over Trinitarian doctrine and the inspiration of Ellen White. These two items of belief seem fundamental to Seventh-day Adventism. And yet, as we look at our history, we will find important differences of belief. Perhaps we can learn from our past about how to deal with our present.

Ask yourself how it would feel to sit next to someone in a worship service who doesn't believe Jesus was co-eternal with God the Father—in other words, that Jesus was a created being. How would it feel to sit in church next to James White, Joseph Bates or Uriah Smith?

http://www.pacificunionrecorder.com/106/12/30463.html

This Internet link was submitted by Dr. Sean Pitman.


 

Unity and Tolerance in the Church
Part Two

by Mark Carr, Ph.D.



So what should we do about diversity of belief among Seventh-day Adventists? "Part One" asked this question in relation to our beliefs about how God created the earth. Imagine worshipping together with some of the most important founders of the Church—men like James White, Joseph Bates and Uriah Smith—who did not believe in the Trinity the way you do.

Adventist Church historians note that these leaders believed that Trinitarian ideas were unscriptural and brought into Christianity through paganism and Roman Catholic theology ( Light Bearers to the Remnant, p. 167). In fact, as we developed formal statements of our beliefs as Seventh-day Adventists, the doctrine of the Trinity was nowhere to be found. The first and second paragraphs of an early statement do focus on God the Father who is represented by the Holy Spirit and Jesus, the Christ who is "the Son of the eternal Father." But, importantly and purposefully there is no assertion of a belief in a Triune God. Today, points two through five of our statement of "Fundamental Beliefs" all focus on the Trinity. Point two begins this way: "There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons."

The point is, our beliefs did not drop out of heaven in a neatly packaged statement toward which all Adventists held immediate and unwavering conviction. There has always been a good deal of diversity among us regarding what we believe and how open we are toward God's leading in the future.

Recall that our Church founders struggled through an intensely difficult time of rejection because of their beliefs in the second coming of Jesus. Most of them were rejected by their churches because of their belief in William Miller's preaching about Jesus' coming. Later, when they organized formally, they did not want their unity to result in the type of harsh exclusionism that they themselves had suffered.

The difficulty the Church faced in the development of our belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is a good illustration for today. In the former trouble, no one questioned whether Jesus was our Savior and Lord; the difficulty lay in how we understood His relationship with God, the Father. So in our current difficulty, no one is questioning whether God is the Creator of all the universe; what some are struggling to understand is just how He went about it.

Writing about unity and tolerance in the Church, Ellen White said: "We cannot then take a position that the unity of the Church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light. The Church may pass resolution upon resolution to put down all disagreement of opinions, but we cannot force the mind and will, and thus root out disagreement. These resolutions may conceal the discord, but they cannot quench it and establish perfect agreement. Nothing can perfect unity in the Church but the spirit of Christlike forbearance" (11MR 266.1).

It is "the spirit of Christlike forbearance" to which I call us in our present turbulence over Adventist beliefs about creation. In "Part One," I quoted Clifford Goldstein's thoughts on how much room for diversity we ought to have as a Church. In the "Part Three," I'll highlight what Jan Paulsen, our General Conference president, has to say about unity and tolerance in the Church.

http://www.pacificunionrecorder.com/107/2/30904.html

The above listed Internet link was submitted by Dr. Sean Pitman.


 

A Call for a Firm Stand on

the Creation Issue

by Sean Pitman

 

I've attached both the first and second parts to Mark Carr's series on Unity and Tolerance in the Church (I think there will be one more next month). What really gets me is that he kind of underhandedly attacked Clifford Goldstein's Adventist Review article discussing the marked dichotomy between evolutionary thinking and SDA thinking.

Now, I know Mark Carr personally and I think he is a good and sincere man. I just don't think he understands where this whole thing is heading - - that it is, even now, seriously undermining the entire order and structure of our Church. The GC really does need to take a firm stand on this issue; a definite stand against teaching Darwinian-style evolution as a valid and correct view in our schools and even preaching it as truth from our own Church pulpits. There's a difference between welcoming people with widely differing views on all kinds of issues to worship with us and welcoming our own hired teachers and pastors to publicly teach and preach against the Church's fundamental positions.

There are private forums set up by the Church for the internal discussion of such controversial issues. However, for the Church as a body to fail to reign in those who continually and deliberately undermine a clearly stated fundamental position of the Church is a death wish that will not be long in fulfilment.

Sean

Received from Dr. Sean Pitman via Email.

 

Let the Ideas Compete

by Roy Adams

[Editorial comment: The following article was recently published by the Adventist Review. It does not address the main issue raised in this thread, but rather deals with the teaching of evolution and Intelligent Design in our public shools.

Quote:

For at least four years now a heated debate has been raging in certain regions of the United States. Should creationism be taught alongside evolution in the science classroom of public schools? The controversy has divided school boards, parents, and whole communities--in Wisconsin, South Carolina, Kansas, Montana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Georgia, and elsewhere. Not having followed the issues closely, and feeling somewhat removed from the situation, I've refrained from commenting thus far. But a recent editorial in the Washington Post stirred me up a bit.1

Apparently struggling to control its anger, the editorial portrayed the scientific community as up against a bunch of creationists with their "slick Web sites, pseudo-academic conferences and savvy public relations." According to the piece, these numskulls, who "do no experiments and do not publish in recognized scientific journals," have nevertheless had "widespread success in undermining evolutionary theory." Citing a recent CBS poll, the editorial was alarmed that "a startling 55 percent of Americans . . . do not . . . believe in evolution at all." Should this creationist trend continue, says the Post, bad things would happen. Among them, the American scientific community would "[cease] to lead the world."

One of the Post's basic arguments is that "to teach intelligent design as science in public schools is a clear violation of separation of church and state," an argument that resonates with Seventh-day Adventists. But think of it this way: To teach that the earth is flat would be bad science (as is the idea of intelligent design), but it would not infringe church-state separation. Indeed one can make a thousand unscientific assertions in the public classroom without creating church-state problems. The fact that teaching intelligent design does constitute an infringement should tell us that its opposite probably carries religious
connotations, as well. The question of origins, carried to its ultimate, moves us away from pure science into the realm of philosophy--even theology.

About four years ago, when it seemed that the anti-creationists had taken control of the ball in places such as Kansas, Oklahoma, and Alabama, the Post had praised the people of those areas for their farsightedness: "Once again," the paper editorialized at the time, "the voters show that they have sounder judgment than the quivering politicians give them credit for."2

Now that the table has turned, the editors of the paper are angry. They're outraged that the public classroom might become exposed to the harebrained concept of "intelligent design"--the belief (in the Post's description) "that intelligent life could not have come about by a random natural process and must have been the work of a single creator." The Post's editors would prefer that American children be taught that intelligent life came about by random natural process.

What concerned me most about the editorial was its apparent posture of intolerance. "I'm reminded," I wrote the editor, "of the religious zealots of the Medieval period who tried to silence the progress of science by threats, ridicule, and the force of canon law." "Now," I said, "it's scientists and their sympathizers who're fearful and nervous. Why do you feel so threatened by the concept of 'intelligent design'? By what logic can you defend the position that the propagation by some people of such a belief would mean that the American scientific community would '[cease] to lead the world'? What a reach!"

Those close to me know how the abrasive, confrontational tactics of the American Religious Right frustrate me. But it seems to me that what the Post's editors would prefer is that religious parents simply roll over and play dead while their children are subjected to ideas that, were it not for the "scientific" mantle thrown over them, would otherwise have been considered totally illogical and nonsensical, namely, that the complex systems we see around us came by random natural process.

It wasn't my intention to address all the complex issues surrounding this controversy. My focus has been limited to the Post editorial. And my single point is that truth should have nothing to fear from close examination. Let the ideas compete.

http://www.adventistreview.org/2005-1512/story4.html

 

Seventh-day Darwinians

by Clifford Goldstein

Rarely has there been a belief so ridiculous or contrary to the Scriptures that, once it becomes popular, some Christians haven't attempted to incorporate into the faith. In its long and often crude lust for cultural and intellectual correctness, the church has become what Jacques Ellul called "an empty bottle that the successive cultures fill with all kinds of things." Roman paganism, Platonism, Marxism, even Nazism have all had baptized aficionados struggling to cram these "things" into the bottle, now so warped and piecemeal it resembles a kaleidoscope image inspired by someone needing Prozac.

Of all the bizarre mismatches, though, none's worse than the attempt to harmonize evolution with Christianity. Evolution? Please! Nazism's a snugger fit.

Though raised on evolution, I one day found myself a born-again Christian who saw, immediately, an impossible conundrum between what I was taught my whole life and my new worldview. Within the first few days someone gave me the book The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, and for the first time I realized that the "proof" I was dogmatically given for evolution wasn't as solid as I had been led to believe from grade school through college. Over time, and after more reading, I was soon purged of all macroevolutionary presuppositions. In fact, if (heaven forbid) I ever lost my faith, I could never go back to evolution. Alien seeding or the Babylonian creation story seems more plausible than the standard scientific paradigm of origins.

"But," someone would say, "it's science." Exactly. And science is still only a human endeavor, and as such it comes burdened with all the prejudices, foibles, fears, and presuppositions of anything human. However much I respect science and stand in awe of its achievements, scientists can be as bigoted and dogmatic as historical critics (well, almost).

Now, it used to be that, for Adventists, evolutionary theory was a threat from without; as unbelievable as it seems, some among us have now accepted theistic evolution--the idea that God used the process of evolution, over millions of years, to create humanity.

These folks, though, don't worship the God of the Bible, for that God didn't use a long, protracted, and vicious dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest paradigm--one that goes against everything He has taught us about love and self-sacrifice--and then lie to us about it by claiming He created life here in six days when He didn't. Plus, that God didn't ask us to keep the seventh day as a memorial, not to the six days of Creation as He explicitly told us in His Word, but to a brutal, hateful, merciless process that took millions of years.

What amazes me isn't so much that people can believe in evolution (after all, I used to), but that those who do still want to be Seventh-day Adventists. I can respect someone who, believing in evolutionary theory, rejects the Adventist Church entirely. I have no respect for those who think they can meld the two.

For anyone, especially our young people, struggling with these issues, I say: Keep seeking with a fervent and honest heart. As long as you stick to the Bible (and Ellen White's books and articles) you will not go wrong. For those among us who have already decided--despite the Bible and Ellen White--on evolution, there are plenty of other churches for you. Ours isn't one. And to those teaching in our schools who believe in evolution and yet take a paycheck from the Seventh-day Adventist Church, I say: If you honestly reject a literal six-day creation in favor of theistic macroevolution, fine; now turn that honesty into integrity and go somewhere where you won't have to cloak your views under the anfractuosities of language.

I speak, I believe, for millions of Seventh-day Adventists when I declare that whatever the age of the earth itself, we will never make room for anything other than a literal six-day creation for life here--never. And for those who want more, you'll have to fight us for every extra minute--much less your millions of mythological years beyond--of which the Word of God knows nothing and with its first verses utterly denies.


http://www.adventistreview.org/2003-1530/story4.html

Clifford Goldstein is editor of the Adult Sabbath School Bible Study Guide.


 

Should Teachers Teach Error?

by Erv Taylor

Sean:

I have been following with great interest your recent exchanges and was betting with myself that you would wind up eventually advancing a particular argument. You just did and thus I won my bet with myself. Thank you.

In two places in your last communication, in response to Donna Carlson’s excellent and perceptive questions, you made essentially the same argument that Cliff Goldstein used several years ago in one of his more notorious editorials in the Adventist Review.

To quote you in two places in your well-crafted and clear response: First-“If any organization allowed its members free reign to directly attack the “fundamental” [your quotation marks] decisions of the organization, be these decisions right or wrong, what is to prevent complete breakdown into fragmented factions.” Second-“[P]astors and teachers should resign their commission before preaching and teaching publicly against any official stand of the church—especially against those that are “fundamental” [your quotation marks]—even if the church’s positions are clearly “nuts.”[your quotation marks]

Might I call your attention to your assertion that it does not make any difference if “. . . these decisions [are] right or wrong” a member should not directly and publicly oppose them. Likewise, “even if the church’s positions are clearly “nuts,” those employed by the organization should not preach or teach publicly against them.

One should certainly give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean morally right or wrong issues but “fundamental” doctrines and organizational decisions and policies crafted in a political setting by a church body.

I would suggest that your position might be able to be sustained and thought reasonable if we all understood our church as one might view a modern corporation with a corporate “party line” and “bottom line.” Its “employees” are hired to push a particular “product” and increase the “bottom line” If they no longer can say that their “product” is the absolute best, then they are no longer of use to the “bottom line.”

Thankfully, might I submit to you that most SDAs and especially those teaching in our institutions of higher education do not believe that the church should be operating within your corporate model. Unfortunately, it many cases it does and this should be resolutely and publicly opposed.

Please keep up the dialogue you have mounted. It is very interesting and instructive.

Cheers,

Erv Taylor

P.S. Your interesting book review of “Understanding Genesis: Contemporary Adventist Perspectives” is currently scheduled for publication in the May-June issue of Adventist Today.

Sent by Erv Taylor via Email.


 

Why Not Go Elsewhere?

by Sean Pitman

Erv,

I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Problem is, I do actually believe that the SDA Church does indeed have a product to "push" or "sell" - so to speak. All organizations do regardless of it they be religious, corporate or otherwise. I agree with Clifford Goldstein very much here.

Also, I don't see that it matters if the fundamental issue in question is considered moral, immoral, or amoral. If one doesn't support a fundamental position of an organization, moral or otherwise, how can one feel morally right taking money from that organization while publicly working against the stated product that that organization is trying to promote? If one becomes convinced that going along with a position of the Church is indeed immoral, then why not leave and go elsewhere? Isn't that the most honest thing to do?

I also do not think most members of the worldwide SDA Church, not even most teachers or preachers, would go along with the notion that the individual teacher or preacher is free to teach and preach whatever he/she want regardless of if their ideas directly counter the Church's stated position - especially when it comes to "fundamental" positions. Even if you were right and the majority of teachers and preachers really did think this was Ok, it wouldn't matter. Such thinking by a majority in any organization seems to me to be a sure sign that the organization is loosing vitality; that it is drifting into nothing more than an social-club type anything goes mentality and is soon to collapse or at least divide.

Thanks again for your thoughts. This exchange is certainly interesting.

Sean


 

You Are Right & So Was Cliff

by David Asscherick

Sean,

Your points have been clearly and cogently advanced. You are right. And so was Cliff. And I would hazard a guess that far better than 90% of Seventh-day Adventists who don't live in Southern California would agree whole-heartedly with both of you.

It is intellectually and morally dishonest to allow yourself to be paid as a representative of an organization (a church no less!) whose essential message (product) you do not believe in or support. It would be criminal enough if one maintained his/ her dissent surreptitiously. (And who would want to live that way anyway?) But when the dissent is made public, it demonstrates a lack of judgement, at least, and possibly of integrity as well.

And all of this talk about orthodoxy is balderdash. Our name is "Seventh-day Adventist". The "Seventh-day" part linguistically and logically (not too mention theologically) demands a fundamental (oh no, the 'f' word) commitment to a literal six-day creation.

Rocket science this is not.

Love you brother,

David Asscherick

"A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets." -A.C. Clarke 


 

What About Martin Luther?

by Jason Shives

Sean,

Thanks for including me on this discussion. Although I mostly agree with you, I see one possible weakness in your argument. What do you think about Martin Luther? It is my understanding that he was openly preaching against the orthodoxy of the catholic church, before resigning from his position as a priest. He was trying to work within the church to change its position to one of biblical fidelity, before he was forced to leave.

Other incidences that come to mind are the times of Israel. Prophets were constantly raised up to rebuke the course of a majority of apostate church members who as a group had decided to worship cattle and baal. They did this from within the church, not from without, even though their viewpoint stood directly opposed to the viewpoints of the majority of the church. There is a Bible precedent in calling the church to revival, however, there is also a precedent to dispose of (or stone) those that are leading the church into heresy (Rebellion of Korah, Ahab, etc).

I do believe that the church will eventually start to make some decisions that may go contrary to the Bible, and I believe that God will raise up men and women to speak up against these issues openly calling our church back to fidelity with the scriptures. However, for those that are questioning our fundamental position on creation, the sanctuary, and women's ordination, it is hard for me to believe that we "missed the mark" in those areas, especially when God had a prophet living during the development of those teachings, who confirmed our position on those areas (or never spoke in opposition to our fundamental stance in those areas). For example, she spoke against evolution very plainly. Why are people doubting what God has already dealt with over 100 years ago? It's flabbergasting! Here is one quote from the Spirit of Prophecy:

" Inferences erroneously drawn from facts observed in nature have, however, led to supposed conflict between science and revelation; and in the effort to restore harmony, interpretations of Scripture have been adopted that undermine and destroy the force of the word of God. Geology has been thought to contradict the literal interpretation of the Mosaic record of the creation. Millions of years, it is claimed, were required for the evolution of the earth from chaos; and in order to accommodate the Bible to this supposed revelation of science, the days of creation are assumed to have been vast, indefinite periods, covering thousands or even millions of years.

Such a conclusion is wholly uncalled for. The Bible record is in harmony with itself and with the teaching of nature. Of the first day employed in the work of creation is given the record, "The evening and the morning were the first day." Genesis 1:5. And the same in substance is said of each of the first six days of creation week. Each of these periods Inspiration declares to have been a day consisting of evening and morning, like every other day since that time. In regard to the work of creation itself the divine testimony is, "He spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:9. With Him who could thus call into existence unnumbered worlds, how long a time would be required for the evolution of the earth from chaos? In order to account for His works, must we do violence to His word? " Education page 129

While I believe your argument has many strengths, I believe the Achilles heal is that it leaves no room for paid employees to voice there concerns openly. Let them voice their concerns, but at the end of the day, I believe that it is up to the church body and its leaders to decide based on the good of the mission of our church, whether or not their concerns are biblical, and if not, whether the "cancer" needs to be removed.

Right now, the ball is in the church's court. For those that do not believe in a literal week of creation, the sanctuary doctrine, or in biblically established gender roles for church leadership, let them challenge the church's stand. But at the end of the day, the church must take a stand, and make a decision. If sin is left unchecked and allowed to percolate through our school system, the next generation will either be corrupted by the heresy being taught, or will react in a way to call the leadership to take action against those teachers, preachers, and administrators that are openly rebelling against the churches fundamental beliefs. We are seeing both results happen even as we write. Lets pray and unite behind our leaders praying they will have the courage to do what is right!

God bless and keep up the dialogue,

Jason 


 

It was a bit different in Luther's day

by Sean Pitman

Hey Jason,

Good to hear from you and thanks for your thoughts.

Certainly those like Martin Luther did challenge their Church publicly before they left. It was a bit different in Luther's day. It was much harder to leave the Catholic Church in his day with one's life in hand. There was really nowhere else to go. The Church had both moral and civil authority in his day. Basically then, he had to challenge the Church from the inside because there was no outside aside from death.

The same thing was true of the prophets in the days of ancient Israel. Their country was a theocracy. There was nowhere else to go.

The situation is different today. The SDA Church does not have civil authority over its members, teachers, or preachers. All are perfectly free to leave. Therefore, if a pastor or teacher decides to publicly start teaching and preaching against any stated fundamental position of the SDA Church, should our Church spend our tithe monies to continue to support such teachers and preachers to speak against the Church's stated fundamental positions?

You argue that "The next generation may call the Church leadership to take action against those teachers, preachers, and administrators that are openly rebelling against the churches fundamental beliefs." Are you not arguing out of both sides of your mouth here? Upon what basis should the Church, as an organized body, take action and what should that action be?

Thanks again for your thoughts Jason, and tell Janelle hello for me.

Sean 


 

What About Women's Ordination

or "Commission'?

by Jason Shives

Sean,

The current position of the church is against women's ordination, however, churches are doing everything short of using the word ordination to "commission" women pastors. Is it right to accept money from a church that has voted against this measure, and work as a woman pastor? Especially as a head pastor for a very large church. Following your logic, we should be asking these ladies to find work elsewhere.

What say ye?

Jason 


 

It is against the authority of the church

bu Sean Pitman

Jason,

That's right. These ladies are acting directly against the authority of the church governing body. In this, they act as though the organization of the church is not a significant issue. Although I believe in women's ordination, I believe even more in maintaining the organization and order of the church. What is the point of having any GC decisions if they are never enforced? Are they only to be taken as "suggestions"? Or, are they to be given greater weight and respect than that? - even if they counter one's own personal views?

Sean 


 

Did Ellen White Rubber Stamp the

Decisions of the Church?

by Nic Samojluk

At this point of the discussion the temptation to insert my own comments became almost irresistible. My question to Sean is: Where would Loma Linda University be if Ellen White had followed the advice of the SDA leaders of her day not to buy the property where the university is located. Did not Mrs. White act on many other occasions against the advice of the leaders of the church?

What about the Apostle Paul who dared to ignore the Christian church's prohibition against the consumption of meat that has been offered to idols as recorderd in Acts 15? Did he not publicly and openly declare that eating food that had been offered to idols meant nothing?

The issue of women's ordination is closely connected with discrimination on the basis of gender. Almost half a century ago, I remember that a colleague of mine who was teaching at what today is "Universidad Adventista del Plata," in Argentina complained that her salary was only 60 percent of her male counterparts. The answer she got was that males were paid a higher salary because they were the main providers for their families.

"That is exactly what I am," she responded. "I am the only provider for my family." Her answer fell on deaf ears, because it was against the church's policy to pay women the same amount for the same type of service. This was eventually corrected because a brave employee of the Pacific Press had the courage to do something about this inequity. The church spent thousand of dollars in an attempt to preserve this unjust discriminatory policy, but lost.

Our current women's ordination policy is based on the same antiquated idea that women do not deserve to receive public recognition for their faithful service to the church. This reminds me of a female Bible instructor in Argentina. She was very successful in her work and prepared an average of 30 candidates for baptism every year. Who got the credit for her work? The pastor who baptized those believers.

Ordination is not even mentioned in the Bible, but rather the laying of hands coupled with prayer. What is wrong with publicly laying our hands and praying for women who are called by God to serve the church as evidenced by their faithfullnes and success in their mission? Ellen White was a woman, and I have seen a copy of her ordination certificate.

As far as I understand, the current policy of our local conference is to issue a certificate indicating that the bearer has been "commissioned" by the church. Nobody is "ordained." Everybody is commissioned, irrespective of gender. This is done in deference to the decision of the church not to ordain women for the ministry. They are not ordained, but rather commissioned.

I see in this a decision not to rebel against an unjust ruling of the church, but rather to do what is right without breaking the letter of the law. Saint Paul was more explicit when he openly ignored tha dictates of the Jerusalem Council and encouraged Christians to ignore the prohibition against the consumption of food that had been offered to idols, and he did not offer to resign from his position as spokesperson for the church.

Now, regarding the teaching of evolution, I believe that the issue is fundamentally different, because there is a golden thread from Genesis to Revelation emphasizing and describing God as the Creator of everything that exists. Jesus spoke and the raging storm ceased. He uttered a word and the lepers became clean. He spoke, and Lazarus came out of the tomb. Negating the creating power of God is akin to destroying the main pillar the church is built upon. Those who teach evolution in our schools should have the courage to seek employment elsewhere.

This is my humble opinion.


 

The Case of Ellen White and Saint Paul

by Sean Pitman

Hey Nic,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was not aware, however, that Ellen White directly countered a GC decision not to buy the LL property nor am I aware of her persistently and publicly countering any official fundamental GC decision. Also, I'm not aware that Ellen White used GC money to buy LL property. Rather, it seems to me that the money was donated directly for the purpose of buying the property. I would be very interested if you could quote the relevant passage to the contrary. Until then, consider these passages:

"In defense of her unprecedented action [in informing Elder Burden to secure the Loma Linda property without consultation of anyone else] she declared, "I considered that the advantages of this location authorized me to speak positively regarding this matter" (Letter 247, 1905). Through the next several weeks letters and telegrams concerning the Loma Linda property crisscrossed the continent. Southern California Conference officers, after counseling with union conference leaders, telegraphed that the conference could take no responsibility in the matter (SHM, p. 349).
An Ellen White letter urged the securing of the property but declared the conference could not be asked to assume the responsibility. But if Burden would move forward, money would come. "If you in Los Angeles will do your best," wrote Ellen White on May 24, "we will do our best . . . If you do nothing, waiting for the conference, you will lose your chance."

Elder Burden obtained the needed money from the donation of a farmer who had just sold some property for $2,400 and then donated the entire amount to Burden for the purpose of retaining the Loma Linda property. - Arther L. White, The Later Elmshaven Years 1905-1915, pp. 16,17.

Paul also did not directly counter in any persistently public way, any declared and affirmed fundamental position of the new Christian Church of which he was a founder. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Paul did not ignore or work against the church's council about eating food offered to idols. What he did, however, was to publicly explain the reasoning behind this council, noting that for him it was nothing, but he refrained and recommended others refrain because of the symbolism involved - of what it meant to others outside of the church. Paul strongly recommended holding backing the doing of that which may be personally fine to do if it might place a "stumbling block" in the path of one's brother.

When Paul or Peter did come into conflict with the church on some doctrinal issue it was usually over an issue that had not really been considered in any official manner by the new church before. The controversies were settled in non-public meetings with the governing body of the church and all conformed to the decisions and recommendations of this governing body. There were no persistent conflicts between any leader of the early Christian Church and any fundamental church body decision; at least none that I am aware.

Therefore, the modern SDA Church's continued blind eye toward teachers and preachers who persistently teach and preach that the officially stated and reaffirmed fundamental doctrine of a recent creation week of seven literal days and a subsequent worldwide Noachian flood is clearly mistaken - - is without precedent.

In short, I see no basis behind upholding the right of the GC to refuse credentialing over the notion of a literal 7-day creation, but deny it's authority regarding other "fundamental" issues.

Sean 


 

The Need to Search the Scriptures Like

the Noble Bereans

by Nic Samojluk

Hi Sean,

Thank you for your quick response. I sometimes wonder how you manage to respond so quickly to so many people at the same time. I want to clarify a few points in order to avoid misunderstandings.

A. The Teaching of Evolution in our SDA Schools. First I want to reiterate what I stated in my previous communication with you: I do believe that the teaching of creation should be encouraged in all our schools. Evolution should be taught as well, not as a scientific fact, but rather as an erroneous theory, diametrically oppossed to what the Bible says from Genesis through the last book of the Bible about the origin of life and the universe . Any SDA teacher who promotes the theory of evolution as a scientific fact should submit his resignation and seek employment elsewhere.

The Behavior of Ellen White. What I said about Ellen White is correct, I believe. What I said is that she acted contrary to the advice she received from the leaders of the church, and I did not specify GC leaders, but rather was thinking about the local leaders of the SDA church. Of course, she was relying on the visionary advice she received from above.

C. The Example of Saint Paul. If you read Acts 15, you will discover that the Christian Church in official session chose three fundamental doctrines for non Jewish converts, and one of them specifically required believers to abstain from food that had been offered to idols. If you do not think this was a fundamental, then read the story of Prophet Daniel, who determined to avoid partaking of such foods at the risk of his own life and the life of the Babilonian officer in charge of his training.

When Paul argued that gentile Christians should refrain from partaking of food that had been offered to idols only when in company with a "weak" Christian brother, he was in fact declaring that those who had chosen said fundamental in the Jerusalen Council were "weak," which was a tacit insult to especially Peter, which created the public confrontation with one of the main leaders of the church in Jerusalem. By this act, Paul was undermining the authority of the GC at Jerusalem, and minimizing the value of the example set by Daniel in the Babylonian court.

Other Fundamentals of the Church. I want to finish with a brief comment regarding other "fundamental" beliefs of our church. There was a time when the original pioneers of our church did not believe in the Trinity doctrine. This has changed. Were it not for the fact that discusion and study was allowed, we would still be arrians, which means that our fundamentals are open to investigation. The noble Bereans did not swallow what Paul had told them, but determined to search the Scriptures in order to find out whether the doctrines presented to them had a solid Scriptural foundation.

Ellen White repeatedly insisted that we should search the Scriptures instead of relying on what Mrs. White was saying. She also assured us that only God is infallible, which means that even she was fallible. Inspiration does not equate with infallibility. She also stated that if her testimonies were not in accord with the Bible, we should reject them. This means that her writings did not supersede the instruction we find in Scripture; her writings were a smaller light designed to lead us to the greater light.

Minor errors in her writings have been documented in the past, and more recently a major error was discovered by Desmond Ford. She told us that Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 in order to present her blood in the presence of God the Father. This is not biblical. The book of Hebrews states clearly that Jesus entered into the presence of God immediately following his ascension to heaven and seated himself at the right hand of God the Father. Our Christian duty is to do what she told us when she stated that we need to study the Bible and reject what she taught in the event it is not supported by Holy Writ. Forcing our SDA teachers to teach what is contrary to Scripture is wrong, I believe. We must obey God rather than men.

This is my humble opinion.

Nic


 

Creation and the Promise of Redemption

by Erv Taylor

Sean:

In light of your views on Creationism, I was wondering what you thought of the book by Ben Clausen and Gerald Wheeler, “The Book of Beginnings: Creation and the Promise of Redemption” published by the Review and Herald in 2006. As you probably know, it was the official companion book to the Fourth Quarter 2006 Senior Sabbath School Lessons on Genesis and thus was promoted widely in Adventist Book Centers. The relevant part of the book was that written by Dr. Clausen.

A review of this book will appear shortly in Adventist Today. So you can preview it, I have attached it [AdventistToday_Clausen_BookReview].

What’s your take on Dr. Clausen’s approach?

Cheers,

Erv 


 

RECENT PUBLICATIONS IN ADVENTIST CREATIONISM

Reviewed by Ervin Taylor

Adventist Creationism: An Enlightened Non-Apologetic Approach

Ben Clausen and Gerald Wheeler. The Book of Beginnings: Creation and the Promise of Redemption. Hagerstown: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 2006

The part of this volume written by Dr. Ben Clausen, dealing with the opening chapters of Genesis, is a unique Adventist publication. It is the one of the few book-length treatments published over the last three decades by a denominationally sponsored Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) press that approaches the topic of the SDA version of biblical creationism with such a high degree of scientific integrity and intellectual honesty.

Even more amazing is the fact that this author is a senior research scientist at the SDA General Conference-sponsored Geoscience Research Institute (GRI). The GRI is an organization now almost entirely dedicated to providing an apologetic defense of traditional SDA young-life creationism and a recent (<10,000 year) worldwide flood. A reader’s amazement is heightened when he or she realizes that this book was promoted and sold widely in Adventist Book Centers as the official companion to the Fourth Quarter 2006 SDA Senior Sabbath School Lessons on Genesis.

In 82 pages, divided into six chapters (out of the 13 chapters in the book), Clausen seeks to provide to nonscientific readers (most of the individuals who will read this volume) what he calls a “balanced presentation, laying out a range of data along with various possible interpretations” (p. 8) He seeks to communicate an appreciation of the extremely difficult task confronting SDA scientists who are Christian believers within the Adventist faith tradition, when they try to reconcile a largely literalistic reading of the Genesis narratives with the vast corpus of scientific data that directly contradicts traditional SDA teachings on creationism.

At the same time, the author is respectful of those individuals who may not be able to confront directly the difficult problems, because of the impact that this might have on where they are now on their personal faith journey. His own view is that while the “Seventh-day Adventist position [on origins] has it share of problems,” to him “it is better than the alternatives.” (p. 8).

SUMMARY

The author begins by suggesting that Genesis 1-11 “addresses all of the fundamental issues of existence. It sets the stage for everything we know: God, the natural universe, humanity, and the existence of good and evil” (p. 8). He immediately addresses a problem shared by every human—“bias.” His bias is that he is a “scientist who looks at nature as marred by sin and interprets it though finite human senses and reasoning . . . I accept God’s Word as authoritative, but emphasize that when using such an approach I am not engaging in science.” His next sentence provides a critical declaration: “I do not believe that the Bible presents the best scientific model for origins or even a scientific model.“(p. 8). To him, his “explorations will not provide the one and only right answer, but they will provide clues and suggestions to help our understandings.” Finally, his introductory statement ends with a caution that “it is well to remember that people are more important than facts, doctrines, or being ‘right’ . . . [Christ avoided] controversy, as we are also to do. He spoke to the heart more than to the reason.” (p. 9).
In addressing origin issues as relating to the biblical narratives, Clausen finds it “more useful to emphasize the Bible’s great controversy story and the integral part that Genesis 1-11 plays in it.” He believes that the focus should be on “God’s character and our trust in Him over our own wisdom” (p. 10).

To him, the God of the Bible is a “rational and dependable . . . omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal . . . truthful and just . . . [and] loving and merciful” deity (p. 10-11). The Scriptures “provide a true record of God’s just dealings with humanity . . .” In commenting on this statement, he quotes the observation of a self-proclaimed atheist, that “religious conservatives are closer to scientists than religious liberals” in that they believe in “objective truth.” He cites this nonbeliever’s contention that religious conservatives “believe in what they believe because it is true,” whereas liberals “think that different people can believe in different mutually exclusive things without any of them being wrong.” (p. 11)

Clausen notes that creation accounts from the Near East “often parallel the [creation] stories of the Bible” since “Biblical writers expressed God’s story in familiar words and images” (p. 12, 14). The creation narrative employs “themes, metaphors, and symbolism” familiar to the original readers but used “these themes to assert its own monotheistic theology.” (p. 14). The writers of the biblical narrative, including Genesis, used “. . . [the] language of appearance, intended its descriptions for the average person [and] . . . did not bother to correct every cultural misunderstanding.” (p. 15)

For example, he later suggests that “modern scientific definitions of death are not always equivalent to those of Bible writers . . . No clear answer as to exactly what kind of death sin brought into the world exists, so perhaps different individuals can reasonably have different opinions.” (p. 47, 48) In addressing origin issues as relating to scientific issues, Clausen notes that “just as Seventh-day Adventists like the great controversy metanarrative because it fits many individual pieces of revelation into an overall cohesive picture, even so scientists like the long-age paradigm because it puts so many pieces of empirical data into an overall explanatory story.” (p. 16).

He considers the data that “science regards as evidence of uniformitarian geological activity lasting billions of years” and then considers “short time” alternatives that attempt to fit the entire geologic column “into a few thousand years, with most geologic activity occurring during Noah’s unique one-year flood.” Since he finds neither of these approaches satisfactory, he summarizes several “intermediate models” (p. 57). These models include a “Seven-day Creation and Local Flood, but Life before the Genesis Creation,” and “God as Creator, but Working During Long Time Periods.” (pp. 63-64). He concludes that it “is as difficult to stretch biblical teaching into a long time frame as it is to fit geology into a short time frame. Both can be forced, but neither flows naturally from the data.” (p. 64)

To this reviewer, Clausen’s most interesting discussion is presented in the context of the constant human search for certainty (Chapter 6). There are, he notes, the “self-assured, dogmatic teachers [who] with an air of infallibility attract those who want certainty.” (p. 73). He prefers to consider the possibility that there may be no answer to the types of origins questions that are typically asked. In his view, perhaps a “solution” would be to “[think] outside the box.” (p. 75). His ideal would be to be able to “accept the evidence from revelation and the evidence from nature and . . . have compatibility between them.” He suggests that there is usually a problem doing this because the “the naturalist [i.e., scientist] soon gives up on revelation (i.e., presumably, the biblical narratives) and the ‘supernaturalist’ [soon gives up] on nature” (i.e., presumably, the scientific data) . . . Too many intellectually responsible academics give up on the church. Other Christians are zealous for God, but unenlightened.” (p. 76).

He prefers the “middle road,” a “third way” or “third option.” He wishes that “we could put aside the search for compatibility for now. Instead, accepting both revelation and nature, we will be willing to take as long as it needs to work toward compatibility. Above all, we must emphasize honesty over coherence and easy solutions. . . . Conservatives are too often afraid of questions, and liberals may fear answers, but hopefully we do not need to be terrified of either. . . . Perhaps a humble, unifying attitude is more important for everyone than a preference for a specific scientific model” (p. 76-77).

Clausen says that he has “wondered for many years what my church has to offer those with an academic, particularly a scientific, mind-set.” He notes that the “church can carefully define its doctrinal position about origins, but theological pronouncements do not solve scientific issues, so doctrinal affirmations do little to meet the needs of the cultural scientific mind-set. Academics are interested in an intellectually coherent worldview—one that fits with their firsthand intellectual experience.” (p. 77)

COMMENTARY

The first six-chapter portion of this book that deals with Genesis 1-6 reflects positively on the intellectual honesty of its author. Other former and current members of the GRI staff have written books and many articles arguing how scientific evidence supports the current traditional Adventist position that holds to a literal six-day creation a few thousand years ago and a recent worldwide flood. This author is much more respectful and realistic in discussing the major scientific problems that confront the conventional SDA understandings and teachings concerning the opening chapters of Genesis.

Two surveys of SDA scientists teaching at denominational universities and colleges in North America conducted by Adventist Today in 1994 and 2004 revealed that a majority of them do not accept central elements of traditional SDA teaching on this topic. In light of these facts, parts of Dr. Clausen’s discussion might be viewed as providing some of the reasons why a majority of his scientific colleagues have so much trouble believing in young-life creationism and a recent worldwide flood.

For his honesty and commitment to providing a balanced discussion, does Dr. Clausen receive praise from ecclesiastical officials in the SDA General Conference-sponsored Biblical Research Institute (BRI)? Regretfully, the answer to that question is no! In a review of this book by Ekkehardt Mueller of the BRI, the approach of Clausen is said to raise “serious questions among the readers and keep them puzzled.” Among views expressed in the book that would, according to this BRI staff member, cause “serious questions” is the “repeated affirmation [of Clausen] that persons are more important than doctrines and ‘being right,’ and that winning people is more important than winning arguments.”

The review concludes by arguing that the “problem is not only with what the book says, but also with how it is said, what is not said, and the underlying philosophical approach..” Since Clausen’s book does not “sufficiently reaffirm faith and may create an atmosphere of uncertainty” the BRI staff member recommends two other books as being “more helpful.” One of these books is by a former director of the GRI. [Adventist Today requested permission to reprint the text of this BRI review in its entirety but this request was denied by the BRI director.]

It is difficult to characterize Clausen’s approach to this topic as being either “liberal” or “conservative” within the current spectrum of Adventist thought. Perhaps it might be best described as defining an authentic middle or “moderate” position. Moderate positions have advantages but also downsides, since they displease those on both the “left” and “right” of them. Perhaps that is where Clausen wishes to position himself.

The overall thrust of his narrative is focused on what the author calls a “balanced approach” which “combines both certainty and flexibility, both the authority of the corporate body and the uniqueness of individual beliefs, and both the firm foundation and landmarks on the one hand and growth, progress, and new light on the other.” (p. 37). In principle this is a laudatory approach. However, he must know that this is an ideal rarely, if ever, achieved. He does not address how this approach would function in the real world of how institutionalized churches actually operate. In this world, power politics exercised by church officials in the name of God almost always prevails over any kind of “balance.”

In conclusion, the first six chapters of this volume address a very contentious topic in contemporary Adventism. It presents the point of view of an intellectually honest and serious Adventist Christian who is facing a dilemma—how to maintain integrity as a conscientious scientist while working within an institution dedicated to a largely fundamentalist agenda and for a church institution headed by members and leaders who want certainty and definitive answers—not probing questions. Galileo would have understood Clausen’s problem.

Even if a reader might not agree with all that the author affirms, one must nevertheless greatly admire the author’s personal commitment to discovering the truth of God’s creation, wherever that truth might lead him. He seems to manifest something of a cheery optimism that the institutional church of which he is a member can follow him there. Time will tell. In the meantime, one hopes that Dr. Clausen will regard it as a badge of personal honor that a member of the Biblical Research Institute of his denomination—the current equivalent of the SDA “Holy Office”—does not approve of his part in this book.

Ervin Taylor, Ph.D., is professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California, Riverside and Executive Editor of Adventist Today. 


 

We will no longer be needing your

services

by Jason Shives

Sean,

Trying not to be double-minded, maybe I have been in Loma Linda too long!! I am trying to address process of dealing with disagreement. When doubt or questions arise, what is the best and most Christian process to handle these issues?

I disagree with encouraging our teachers to teach creation because it is the policy (while they believe in evolution). Let them teach what they believe, but then let us act, and tell them we are a SDA institution, and here is a nice severance pay, but we will no longer be needing your services.

I firmly believe that we should as church memebers be allowed to question our doctrines honestly without being immediately thrown out. However, once the church has addressed those questions (ie Faith & Science conferences) and has taken a stand, the church needs to do something about it. BTW, we are the church, and having dialogue like this, starting websites, writing to church leaders, etc....we need to be doing something.

It is not logical to think that these rebels will leave on their own accord. They need "encourgagement." So we answer the allegations these people have as best we can, then we have the courage to fire those that continue to teach against our beliefs. This way we are Christian and Coporate.

Here is a diagram:

Heresy taught ---> Teacher reported ---> Leaders counter with good evidence ---> Church reaffirms stance ---> Teacher given ultimatum ---> Fired or Probation (latter for those that say they agree to teach the church's stance) ---> re-evaluation of their stance after 6-12 months

I think that it was beneficial to have these questions on evolution come up, because it will cause our scientist to wake up and have better arguments to address these concerns. It is just too bad that the evolution questions came from within and not without!

Sorry for souding political (double-talk), I was eating a sandwich!

Jason 


 

Firing a teacher should only be the

church's last resort

by Sean Pitman

Jason,

If you tell a teacher or preacher, "Here is your severance pay; we no longer need your services." haven't you just fired that man or woman? That right there is most certainly an encouragement for teachers that do not believe in creation to leave and move elsewhere, like to a public school, where their convictions will be in line with those of their employer.

I agree that the church should give opportunity for debate and question, but not in a public way regarding fundamental issues that the GC has already decided upon in a very clear manner (i.e., the result of the Faith and Science Conferences). I also agree that a teacher or preacher should be given many chances to reform or leave of their own accord before they are forced to leave. Firing a teacher or preacher should only be the church's last resort in the face of firm deliberate rebellion against the church's stated fundamental positions and extended council.

Sean 


 

No on kicking out brothers or sisters

or children

by Donna Carlson

Hello Sean (et al - I did not realize before that my comments were going to such a wide set of recipients) -

One of the "fundamentals" of Adventism has always been, for me, the encouragement of individual thinking and exploration of new ways of looking at God's created universe. That's how we got started in the first place. It seems most un-Adventist to suggest that people (including church employees, pastors, and academicians) who observe this universe, and read about it, and think about it, and analyze information gained in these ways to reach conclusions different from those of a relatively small group of "rulers" are undermining the church and ought to leave. Not so; it's their church too.

Moreover, to retire from the field and leave the church one loves to the tyranny of the least enlightened seems the ultimate disloyalty. This church is not (or should not be) a dictatorship, an oligarchy, or even a theocracy. This is a church committed to progressive education and innovative theology and one which actively encourages all to think for their own benefit as well as for the benefit of the group. Accordingly, we have a duty to stay here and put our ideas into the public marketplace of church conversation. Just as you all appear to be doing in this set of e-mail conversations.

Nor is it enough that church administration (which it behooves us to remember is not the same as the church itself) sponsor a few "private" [read: secret] study groups or be the exclusive arbiters of the "proper channels" of discussion.

I say again that I appreciate your concern for the problem of how to maintain church identity while accomodating change. But I don't think kicking out brothers or sisters or children who think differently from the parents/grandparents is the way to keep a growing family intact.

Donna 


 

Organization was necessary to protect

the church from chaos

by Sean Pitman


Hey Donna,

Sorry about the batch reply to your last letter. I should have asked if you wanted to be involved in the general discussion first. Hope you don't mind. I think many others would be interested in reading your thoughts as part of this exchange.

Different honest very intelligent people come to very different conclusions about how things are and how things work after studying the same set of information. Those with similar ideas who think their ideas may be of some benefit to others may band together to form a more efficient unified effort to "spread the good news" of how things really are; to save others from what what is perceived, right or wrong, to be potential pitfalls of thinking or acting.

The SDA Church did indeed begin with a small group of individuals who were largely expelled from their original church congregations. Because of the pain of this experience, early SDA Church organization was strongly resisted. However, as the church started to rapidly grow in size and diversity, it became quite clear that organization was necessary to prevent the church from complete chaos and eventual collapse. Ellen White and especially James White along with those like J.N. Loughborough started working toward church organization and official church credentialing of church representatives who met certain fundamental criteria as far as experience, ability, and stated beliefs. Loughborough detailed many of these in his work, The Church, Its Organization, Order and Discipline (1907).

Ellen White herself wrote of this time in the following passages:

"Of course those who claimed "liberty to do as they pleased," to "preach what they pleased," and to "go when and where they they pleased," without "consultation with any one," failed to get cards of commendation. They, with their sympathizers, drew off and commenced a warfare against those whom they claimed were "depriving them of their liberty." Knowing that it was the Testimonies that had prompted us as a people to act, to establish "order," these opponents soon turned their warfare against instruction from that source, claiming that "when they got that gift out of the way, the message would go unrestrained to its `loud cry.' . . .

One of the principal claims made by those who warred against organization was that it "abridged their liberty and independence, and that if one stood clear before the Lord that was all the organization needed," etc. Upon this point, when church order was contested, we read: "Satan well knows that success only attend order and harmonious action. He well knows that everything connected with heaven is in perfect order, that subjection and thorough discipline mark the movements of the angelic host. . . . He deceives even the professed people of God, and makes them believe that order and discipline are enemies to spirituality; that the only safety for them is to let each pursue his own course. . . . All the efforts made to establish order are considered dangerous, a restriction of rightful liberty, and hence are feared as popery." - "Testimonies for the Church," Vol. I, page 650.

Now, after reading that, do you honestly think that the founding mother and fathers of the SDA Church would really support teachers and preachers going off independent of the governing body of the church publicly teaching and preaching directly contrary to the stated fundamental positions of the organized church body? - to include doctrines that directly challenge the basis of the very title " Seventh-day Adventists".

Sure, the SDA Church does indeed encourage individual thinking and exploration. However, the church has also historically supported the notion that if individual thinking directs the individual away from the fundamental doctrinal positions of the church, that individual is no longer to be recognized by the body as an official representative. This seems to me to be only common sense. It holds true for any viable organization trying to do anything with any united effectiveness.

Really now, what is the point of the church having a governing body in the form of the General Conference if nothing that body decides carries any weight whatsoever? I'm not saying that the church should bar people from attendance. No one, short of those that are homicidal perhaps, should be barred from church attendance. However, no one who persistently insists on presenting his or her own views that are known to be directly contrary to the stated fundamental position of the church governing body, should receive official recognition as a paid representative of that body.

One of the reasons I feel so strongly about this is that it is false advertising. Those who buy a product from a paid representative of any organization expect to receive, for their money, what they have been told they will receive. What should parents who send their children to an SDA school expect to receive for their money over what they would expect to receive if they sent their children to some other church school or public school? Should they not expect to buy a certain type of education for their children that is actually what is being advertised in a list of fundamental positions of the church? - even if you or I might think some of those positions are clearly mistaken?

Again, there seems to me to be a difference between having a church body refuse to credential pastors and teachers compared to a church body refusing to admit worshipers with fundamentally differing views into common society.

Sean 


 

Can we enlist others on the

"reasonable" side?

by Erv Taylor

Donna:

Enjoyed your comments on the exchanges with Sean Pitman. Did you get a copy of my response?

Can we enlist others on the "reasonable" side (e.g., our side) to keep this exchange going so that not all of it is from a fundamentalist perspective.

Erv
 


 

How to maintain church identity while accomodating change

by Donna Carlson

Hi Erv -

Yes, I did get your comments. I did not realize at first that I had sent my note to Sean - and he had answered me - with copies to everyone. That is b/c I am a techno-idiot who cannot even use e-mail properly. So you may not want me on your "side."

Also, I think Sean has identified an important issue - how to keep the identity of the group intact in some recognizable form. I just don't like his [and others'] "kick the dissenters out" solution. Sounds like Nick is [at least partly] in the corner with us right-minded folks too. And he's effectively pulled Jesus and Mrs. White in with us.

I sent Sean and Lynn Heath the following reply - but did not get it out to the group. Maybe I will become more e-mail savvy as this discussion progresses.

"Hello Sean (et al - I did not realize before that my comments were going to such a wide set of recipients) -

"One of the "fundamentals" of Adventism has always been, for me, the encouragement of individual thinking and exploration of new ways of looking at God's created universe. That's how we got started in the first place. It seems most un-Adventist to suggest that people (including church employees, pastors, and academicians) who observe this universe, and read about it, and think about it, and analyze information gained in these ways to reach conclusions different from those of a relatively small group of "rulers" are undermining the church and ought to leave. Not so; it's their church too.

"Moreover, to retire from the field and leave the church one loves to the tyranny of the least enlightened seems the ultimate disloyalty. This church is not (or should not be) a dictatorship, an oligarchy, or even a theocracy. This is a church committed to progressive education and innovative theology and one which actively encourages all to think for their own benefit as well as for the benefit of the group. Accordingly, we have a duty to stay here and put our ideas into the public marketplace of church conversation. Just as you all appear to be doing in this set of e-mail conversations.

"Nor is it enough that church administration (which it behooves us to remember is not the same as the church itself) sponsor a few "private" [read: secret] study groups or be the exclusive arbiters of the "proper channels" of discussion.

"I say again that I appreciate your concern for the problem of how to maintain church identity while accomodating change. But I don't think kicking out brothers or sisters or children who think differently from the parents/grandparents is the way to keep a growing family intact."

Donna 


 

Loyal opposition, thoughtful inquiry

or rebellion?

by Lynn R. Heath

 

Sean,

I've been thinking some more about your position. This exchange with Donna Carlson has prompted me to look at the problem from another point of view.

I believe that you use the word "undermine" where and I would use the words "discuss" or "debate". I would not say that a person who has ideas different from the 27 fundamental beliefs is undermining those beliefs, but is discussing those beliefs or examining those beliefs. One reason to be lenient with pastors and scholars who discuss differences of opinion is that they often are fielding questions from students or other church members and must be free to actually discuss the issues that are brought up rather than simply repeat the standard church position.

This has to do with attitude and is a judgment call by the church administrators. These administrators have to decide whether the person's position is loyal opposition, thoughtful inquiry or rebellion . The case of Desmond Ford is an example.

I differ with you on the point at which I think "discussion" becomes "undermining".

Lynn


 

What then is your definition of

subversive activity?

by Sean Pitman

Lynn,

There seems to me to be a big difference between discussing a topic and actively and promoting a certain position as the "true" position on a topic in a public manner. When a pastor or teacher hired by the SDA Church repeatedly says in public that the real truth or even "fact" of the matter is that life on Earth evolved over millions and billions of years and that there was no recent worldwide flood, how can anyone interpret such statements as anything other than a direct attempt to undermine the carefully and clearly restated fundamental positions of that pastor's or teacher's employer? - i.e., the SDA Church? Are you honestly suggesting that such deliberate non-equivocal public activity isn't really subversive? What then is your definition of subversive activity?

Calling it "loyal opposition" or "thoughtful inquiry" seems to me to be smokescreen semantics. Seriously, at what point do you think a "discussion" really does become "undermining"? What is the validity of the GC if no one need respect or heed anything the GC says if it goes against personal opinion? What's the point of the GC recognizing pastors and teachers as representatives of the SDA Church if pastors and teacher can teach and preach anything they wish under the cloak of "thoughtful inquiry"?

Why even have any stated "fundamental beliefs" if none of them are actually respected and taught as actually being fundamental and unique? What separates our "group" from all others? Why should anyone want to join our group vs. any other of the many options out there? Do we really have nothing special to share with the world?

Sean 


 

We have created too many

fundamentals!

by Nic Samojluk

Hi Sean,

Perhaps the problem is that we have created too many fundamentals: twenty-seven of them. Islam has five, which is a number even the ignorant can easily remember, but twenty-seven? How many SDA's do you know that could recite from memory all of them, and how many members of the church have read all of them?

When the Christian church sprung out of Judaism, there was one fundamental: belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and the Saviour of the world. The Ethiopean Eunuch had no problem dealing with that one fundamental. Suppose you had to play the role of Phillip on that occassion. Would you have said to the Ethiopean, "Sorry, I cannot baptize you today. You have to accept first the twenty-seven fundamentals of christianity, including the non-biblical teaching about what is going to happen in 1844."

Good grief! We have really complicated the life of Christians! I believe that believing that God is the Creator of everything that exists is a true fundamental. So is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour of the world. We can add to this our beief in the sacredness of the Sabbath, and the state of the dead. There is a need for us to simplify our fundamental beliefs, and they should never exceed the number of fingers we have on our hands. Seven should perhaps be the ideal number, which is a symbol of perfection.

The belief that Jesus waited untill 1844 to present his sacrifice before God the Father should have never been considered a fundamental. It is non-biblical, and should have never be a requirement for baptism. If believing in something the Bible denies in the book of Hebrews is a fundamental requirement for membership of the SDA Church, then perhaps the church should refuse to accept my tithes and offerings and delete my name from the church records. This would be a clear evidence that believing in our Sanctuary doctrine is really fundamental for church membership. Do you think that the church will ever do this?

The fact that the church gladly accepts the tithes and offering from members who do not believe in this "fundamental truth" is evidence that it is not so fundamental as some would like us to think. If you are really convinced that accepting all twenty-seven fundamentals is really fundamental, then I suggest you tell the church leaders to refund all the tithes and offerings of those who deviate from those "fundamental" beliefs, and then I will believe that those beliefs are really fundamental.

This is my humble opinion.

Nic


 

Who is to define the orthodox/fundamental Concepts?

by Sean Pitman

Hey Donna,

Thanks for your thoughts. I hope you don't mind if I respond line-by-line . . .

Good grief, I did it again. Sorry.

What I am trying to say is that I see at least three problems with your position:

1. Who is to define the orthodox/fundamental? And how do we select the criteria by which to select the criteria to judge the answer to this question?


As far as any viable organization goes, it seems to me that there has to be some sort of governing body that defines the orthodoxy for that group. This may be in the form of a dictatorship or democracy or republic, but the end result is the same - no single member of an organization can go off and do their own thing contrary to the decisions of the organization without eventually being forced to leave it.

As far as selecting criteria, that is up to the governing body as well as the individual. If the individual thinks the criteria chosen by the governing body is all wet and clearly mistaken, the individual is free to leave and go elsewhere - perhaps even starting up their own organization of like minds who have the same opinions as to which criteria to use.

2. How can the church progress in its thinking and absorb new information if its "fundamentals" are set in stone?

I don't believe all the fundamentals are set in stone (though some are pretty close to it if the organization is to maintain any semblance of its original self or any novel platform). I mean really, if the SDA Church suddenly accepted Sunday as the true Sabbath and started worshiping the Virgin Mary, would there really be an SDA Church at all? However, certain "fundamentals" can be changed without a complete loss of novel identity and there are proper pathways to do this. The church has set up internal conferences to discuss these issues and make a unified decision on them every so often. In light of a standing decision of the organization, however, the individual member or hired representative is not a liberty to publicly undermine that decision without the governing body of the organization taking action against the individual, such as removing their official recognition as a representative of the organization (especially when it comes to pastors and teachers).

If any organization allowed its members free reign to directly attack the "fundamental" decisions of the organization, be these decisions right or wrong, what is to prevent complete breakdown into fragmented factions?

3. How are we to hang on to our youth if we persist in holding on to archaic and frankly undefensible positions on current issues?

If our youth or anyone else is convinced that the church is holding on to archaic and indefensible positions, they are indeed free to leave if such positions seem personally important enough to publicly challenge - especially when it comes to teachers and preacher.. In my opinion, the church is not a place to swing its positions with popular opinion or with declining membership. Any belief that is truly held to be "fundamental" will be held regardless of popular opinion. Social-club churches don't usually last very long. Rather, movements with a clearly defined definite stand, even if generally unpopular at first, are the ones that grow and survive.

Cases in point: the sanctuary doctrine, women's ordination; geologic time studies, etc.

I personally believe in both the sanctuary doctrine and the historical view of a very recent formation of the geologic/fossil record. If either of these doctrines were changed by the church, I'd leave the church. They are that "fundamental" for me.

Now, as far as women's ordination goes, I don't agree with the church's position, but I also don't think it right for me to go around publicly undermining this position as a representative of the church. If I felt strongly enough about it I'd leave the church before attacking this position in a public manner. So far, this issue hasn't become fundamental for me mostly because the church is a worldwide church and a dramatic change in this position would alienate a great many of non-North American members. So, I think it is mostly for practical reasons that this position is maintained. While I don't personally agree with this course of action, I don't think it is something that can't be worked on internally over time. I don't think it is the proper course for pastors or teachers to publicly undermine even wrong decisions from the pulpit or classroom while, at the same time, receiving money for their services from the very organization they are undermining. That, to me, is dishonest.

The recent action of the GC in deciding that any GC president must be an ordained minister was [to my mind] one of the most overtly discriminatory actions ever taken by that august body - which has taken many. Since they have affirmed many times that women cannot be ordained, this was effectively a way to eliminate more than half the church membership from ever being considered for that high office. Personally, I think it was the action of an insecure and culturally primitive set of people who are afraid that their control of the larger group may some day be challenged by a committed and highly qualified person who happens to be female.

I agree. The church is run by erring humans. Again though, if the organization itself is thought to have some value, proper channels should be used in making changes to fundamental positions. If a church position is too out of line with one's personal fundamental values, then I recommend leaving the church before taking a public stand against it. At the very least, pastors and teachers should resign their commission before preaching and teaching publicly against any official stand of the church - especially against those that are "fundamental" - - even if the church's positions are clearly "nuts".

I understand your concern that total lack of structure may lead to chaos. But total lack of structure and absolute doctrinal orthodoxy are not the only choices. they are the extremes.

I understand that. I'm only saying that one should follow proper channels in challenging church orthodoxy or leave the church before doing so.

I mean really, where would you draw the line for the maintenance of church government? At what point would you be willing to remove official church recognition from a pastor or teacher from challenging the decisions of the governing body of an organization?

For example, lets say that the church finally made the decision to ordain women. Yet, some pastors and teacher where still preaching and teaching that this action of the church was a "sin" that should not be tolerated? Would they be free to make such comments in such a public manner against a decision of the GC whom they are paid to represent? At best, I'd say that they either resign or don't bring up the topic in their sermons or classrooms.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts. I've always enjoyed hearing what you have to say.

Donna

Sean 


 

"If these doctrines were changed,

I'd leave the church!

by Nic Samojluk

Hi Sean,

There are many points on which I agree with your position, and I admire both your extensive knowledge and strong convictions. Nevertheless, there is one point that still bothers me. It is a statement you have made before, and we have discussed at length on another thread. Here is what bothers me in your response to Donna:

Quote:
I personally believe in both the sanctuary doctrine and the historical view of a very recent formation of the geologic/fossil record. If either of these doctrines were changed by the church, I'd leave the church. They are that "fundamental" for me.
I will also quote what you did say even more emphatically on the above-mentioned occasion:

Quote:
The literal creation week is the foundation of the Gospel itself. Certainly, if I found that such a concept was simply untenable, via evidence provided by the scientific method, I would certainly leave not only the SDA church, but Christianity as well.

I will skip the issue of the sanctuary doctrine, which I did address already in a previous communication. What bothers me the most has to do regarding the age of the earth. Ellen white did tell us that the Lord has given us two books: The Bible and nature. If interpreted correctly, they should agree. Adventists have barely begun to study the second book: nature. Most adventists do not have enough scientific knowledge to handle the questions that arise with the difficult task of interpreting the geologic column. We have very few scholars who understand the difficult and complex task of dating techniques.

You stated the hypothetical that, in the event the church were to alter its position about the age of the earth, then you would leave the church. This means to me that if God's book of nature were to plainly and unequivocably reveal beyond a reasonable doubt that our planet is much older than what the church has been teaching, and the church decided to cave in to the weight of scientific evidence, you would leave the church.

I think that you need an insurance against such a hypothetical outcome, and that what Jack Provonsha proposed is a reasonable alternative in the event we discovered that our planet is much older than a few thousands of years, and that suffering and death did actually exist prior to the creation of Adam and Eve. If that were to happen, the logical solution would be to suggest that animals did exist, did suffer and die before Adam and Eve appeared on the scene, and that such biological activity might have been the result of Lucifer's doing after he was expelled from heaven.

We did argue back and forth about this hypothetical scenatio ad nauseam, and this is accessible on this forum at the following Internet address:

How Fundamental is the Literal Six-Day Creation Week?
http://sdaforum.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5285

Nic


 

"I am not a rebel against the

SDA church!"

by Lynn R. Heath

Sean,

Attitude is important. I am not a rebel against the SDA church. I love the church. If I didn't wish the church well I would not participate in the discussions. You ask: "Seriously, at what point do you think a "discussion" really does become "undermining"? Do think I'm not serious? The answer is when there is an attitude change.

It doesn't seem to me that pastors and teachers are saying that life on earth evolved over millions of years but, that much scientific evidence seems to point in that direction and that it is worth thinking about. These people are not rebels they are sincere people seeking truth and they are devoted members of a church they love.

I believe I have the interests of the church in mind as you do, and that is the reason for this discussion. I feel you mischaracterize my words as "smokescreen semantics". Should I think you or Clifford Goldstein are trying to win an argument about creation/evolution by insisting that the church take credentials away from scientists and theologians whom you cannot persuade? I want to believe your motives are pure, I hope I can expect the same from you. Let's wipe aspersions such as these from this discussion.

Lynn 

 


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